Should Roger Dean sue over Avatar film?

As far as we know Roger Dean was not involved at all in the Cameron film Avatar but clearly his influence is there and has been recognised by a lot of people.  Some outraged long-term Roger Dean fans searching in vain for a credit at the end of the film are calling for Roger Dean to sue Cameron.  Others are are asking why he wasn’t honest enough to acknowledge Roger Dean’s influence or involve him in the project. You’ll find all this and a lot more in the discussions and articles on these links -

Digital Spy - designs in Avatar seem remeniscent of Roger Dean but not ready yet to call for Roger Dean suing Cameron. Then there are blogs with stuff like this starting to think there is an issue that needs addressing.

Stupid Future - Roger Dean wants his floating islands back - now it is getting a bit more serious.

Plus of course, the long-term YES fans (Roger Dean did many of the band’s covers and designed their stage sets) have their say here and they are rather more unhappy about their favourite artist being ripped off.

There was also a mention on Roger Dean’s own site but it appears to have disappeared. 

The Artists UK Roger Dean section is here.

What do you think?

75 Responses to “Should Roger Dean sue over Avatar film?”

  1. 1Shava Nerad on Dec 31, 2009 at 12:21 am:

    There was something of a similar issue with American game company White Wolf and the Sony Picture’s film Underground. Underground basically had identical art direction and a very similar plot to some of White Wolf’s games, but no one clued Sony in on this apparently until about 3 months before the film was to be released.

    Rather than suing Sony, White Wolf and Sony engineered a lovely settlement, as I understand (I think terms were not publicly disclosed) which seems to have included Sony releasing press in advance of the opening *complaining* about WW’s grievances against them, and eventually settling for a tidy sum. The upshot is, *all* the money “advertising” the dispute was managed and paid for by Sony — they seemed to have turned it into something of a publicity stunt, and written it off as marketing.

    Of course, now the film is released, and I saw it last night, and the first thing I thought to do leaving the theater was to check back on some of Roger Dean’s art (which I’ve now introduced my son and fiance — also a psychedelic artist of a sort — to). It’s…uncanny, isn’t it. As though…perhaps they were tapping into the same collective unconscience, the same dream (the same substances? :).

    Uh huh. Uncanny.

    Were I Roger Dean, I would look for an acknowledgement, start planning a retrospective tour, perhaps a settlement of some sort, and take it in good stride. I’ve been a fan for likely 35 or so years now, and wish him the best of luck with it.

    It is, after all, the sincerest form of flattery. Or something.

  2. 2John McMillan on Dec 31, 2009 at 8:00 am:

    No doubt about it…even if there were no floating islands, just the arches themselves were direct rip-offs. I paid Roger Dean $10 for some screensavers; I think Mr. Cameron needs to pay up as well!

  3. 3Colin Severs on Dec 31, 2009 at 8:41 am:

    I watched the brilliant Avatar last night and immediately thought of Roger Deans artwork, there were so many scenes, dragons and even the skin on the creatures that Roger Dean had covered some 30+ years ago. I was amazed to find out that he had no mention in the credits. This is sheer plagiarism - there must be a legal case here.

  4. 4mannylunch on Jan 2, 2010 at 7:21 am:

    I’m another who was stunned when there was not a mention of Roger Dean in the end credits! You ABSOLUTELY KNOW that the production designer[s] of the AVATAR film (and/or Cameron himself) had the Views book open during their whole planning session [no matter that the corporate lawyers are busy cleaning up any evidence of that in the legitimate workplaces - hey, get a warrant to search their homes. Certainly depositions employing lie detectors..]
    Theses are HIS LANDSCAPES and HIS FLYING CREATURES! If Roger Dean were a musician, and these ideas were his songs, you can be SURE that he would’ve been credited - and PAID!
    As it is, there are enough ‘notes in sequence’ to prove that this is his ‘music’ in court!
    I did/do love the film, and DEAN’S CONCEPTS - make no mistake, they are definitely his - are beautifully realized - it was amazing sitting in Dean’s world for two+ hours
    Great humanist story, too - and a brilliant touch when you hear one of the ‘indigenous’ warriors shout something that phonetically sounds like ‘alah’ when charging the mercenaries near the end!

  5. 5Orphie on Jan 2, 2010 at 8:21 pm:

    If not compensation for ‘appropriation’ of an artist’s life work, there should be a public acknowledgment. Roger Dean deserves a credit for the obvious influence he’s had on Avatar.

  6. 6Dejael on Jan 4, 2010 at 11:56 pm:

    ROGER DEAN SHOULD SUE CAMERON’S FILM PRODUCTION COMPANY FOR OVER A MILLION POUNDS!!!

  7. 7Artists UK on Jan 6, 2010 at 3:59 pm:

    Well, that loooks pretty unanimous so far! Has nobody got a different point of view? Possibly not. I wonder what Roger Dean is going to say …

  8. 8steve on Jan 8, 2010 at 7:32 am:

    Roger’s “Floating Islands” film project is surely grounded now. Assuming it is ever finished, who would watch it and ‘not’ say… “oh, James Cameron rip off”

  9. 9Artists UK on Jan 8, 2010 at 5:55 pm:

    Indeed! What a shame.

  10. 10Brian on Jan 10, 2010 at 2:03 pm:

    How did Cameron ever think he could leave Roger out of the equation? It’s not like he’s some unknown dead artist, he is still very much alive and his work is recognised the world over. It’s not like this is just a charge of heavy influence, whole concepts have been lifted and incorporated into a billion dollar money maker. I hope Cameron comes clean.

  11. 11Nathan on Jan 11, 2010 at 1:11 am:

    Great, great movie! Definately one of my top favorites. As I was watching, I was sure that Roger Dean was hired to design the entire visual concept. How exciting! I am a very happily born and raised Yes fan, and Roger Dean’s incredible Yes album artwork filled my childhood (and adulthood) with visual wonderment- the perfect accompaniment to Yes’s dreamy-imagery inspiring, and universally positive concept music. Lets call a spade a spade here, it is obvious that Pandora is Roger Deans world, just get out your old Yes albums and have a look! It is obvious they didn’t want to pay Roger Dean for his intellectual and artistic property. Its obviously plagerism and I hope Roger sues and wins!

  12. 12malcolm on Jan 11, 2010 at 10:07 am:

    why is Roger Dean not mentioned at all in conncetion with Avatar .. the file is clearly a complete homage to Dean’s visual style and references so many ideas that the inspiration is clear .. I think the film is visualy superb but so are the paintings …. Cameron owes an acknowledgement and payment to Roger Dean

  13. 13Paul on Jan 15, 2010 at 2:41 pm:

    Excellent, beautiful and stunning film , but can’t wait until the DVD is out. Definatly be over dubbing Yes songs before loading up to You Tube. “Avatar - The Roger Dean Cut” - available soon .. all profits to “Floating Island” project.
    Mr Cameron… Don’t bother suing.. that’s only fair

  14. 14Artists UK on Jan 15, 2010 at 4:11 pm:

    Thanks for all the contributions here. Of course, we are still left with the puzzle as to why you use someone’s style and ideas, strongly suggesting that you appreciate them, without actually acknowledging the source. When Peter Jackson was planning the Lord of the Rings films he was an admirer of Alan Lee’s art and consequently invited him to join the project. Beyond that, when he went on to do his favourite film remake (King Kong) he invited Alan Lee back again to work on it. Why on earth did Cameron make this film without asking Roger Dean to join the team if he appreciated his work? The only other answer we can come up with is that Cameron’s creative team, unknown to him, rather than do the hard work of coming up with new ideas, simply stole them …

  15. 15Gideon on Jan 16, 2010 at 1:42 am:

    I’m with Roger Dean on this. I love the movie and whilst watching was thinking, ‘haven’t I seen this world before somewhere?’ Unbelievable that they would get so much inspiration from his worlds and then give no mention, I even saw an interview in which the designers go so far as to deny the influence, claiming to have never heard of Roger!

    It’s a clear case of plagiarism and I hope James Cameron emerges from a dark night of the soul with an intention to do the right thing, just as he has his character Sully do! Pandora was created by Dean and then turned into a movie, with some other neat effects no doubt. In the mean time, this being one of my favourite movies, I’ll be saving up to buy an authentic Roger Dean painting.

  16. 16Nathan on Jan 16, 2010 at 4:47 am:

    YES, he stole Rogers life work. It’s clear if you are familiar with Roger Deans work. But perhaps a creative solution here… I just heard theres plans for Avatar 2. So maybe Roger could be invited to join the team, and Yes’s songs from Relayer, Close to The Edge and Tales From The Topographic Oceans could form the soundtrack- what an improvement from the P.O.C. music they used for the film. Yes music is only natural for that kind of beautiful, unspoiled world… It would have made the film that much more incredible.

  17. 17Artists UK on Jan 16, 2010 at 9:38 am:

    You’ll be needing a fair bit of money Gideon. Especially if you are after one of the early classics.

  18. 18minespatch on Jan 19, 2010 at 12:43 am:

    This reminds me of the Aliens situation. Did Cameron ask Giger for rights on the designs of the aliens? Also, if he didn’t, would this give him the same levels as the people who Captain Eo for plagerism?

  19. 19Cameron Striewski on Jan 19, 2010 at 11:12 pm:

    Avatar is a massive technical achievement, but like the film’s theme, the filmmaker is essentially stealing what does not belong to him. It’s like James Cameron is sending a message, “I can take anything I want, and there’s nothing you can do about it.”
    In response, Roger Dean should absolutely sue for plagiarism, that of his entire life’s work as depicted in the blatant rip-off seen in Avatar’s moon world of “Pandora.” Dean might not win, not because he doesn’t deserve to, but because of mega-corp money giants and their influence tied to Cameron and his project.
    From misty floored rain-forests, to the floating mountains/islands (both in look and layout), the insect-like helicopters, and especially the flying dragons (stolen down to the graphical patterns of colored flesh in both blue and red versions) even the blue-skinned children seen in Yes’ Yesterday’s cover art, Pandora is Dean’s dreamworld brought to 3D animated life. Perhaps Pandora is appropriately named (subconsciously so?) because of the legal battle that should be unleashed as a result of such an arrogant thievery. But who cares? Cameron and shareholders don’t care so much about bad PR as much as a bad bottom line. Make no mistake about it, Dean has been harmed by this theft. His own project “Floating Islands” will probably never be made, and if it is, will probably never have the level of technical craft that Avatar’s half-billion dollar budget allowed for. For most of the uneducated masses, it will be Cameron’s film AKA “vision” that came first. It’s disgusting to hear Avatar’s designers mention Dean’s work as “whimsical” and something they wished to avoid. Is it whimsical because Dean’s artwork is created by hand and not photo-realistically rendered by mega-computers? That’s the kind of demeaning, belittling comment typical of the Jar-head clan.
    Cameron should have learned his lesson with the Terminator film when he was forced to retroactively credit writer Harlan Ellison for the inspiration of that film. Like Ellison, Dean in all likelihood would have given permission if asked before the fact or been given an honorary credit. Instead, Cameron laughs when he admits in his Entertainment Weekly interview when asked if the inspiration came from a Yes album cover, “It might have been, back in my pot smoking days.”
    As if smoking pot is an excuse for forgetting to credit the true and obvious artistic visionary of Avatar. Hey James, “I see you.” Too bad, what’s inside is as empty as the film’s end crawl.

  20. 20Jimbo Jones on Jan 25, 2010 at 1:39 am:

    Absolutely, Roger Dean should be looking for compensation. Even if he’s too modest to collect it, he has to raise the prospect, just to show artists aren’t willing to give up their intellectual property so easily. It’s not like Cameron can’t afford to share the wealth. I suspect he was a Yes fan, growing up outside of Toronto - a big Yes fandom. By the way, did anyone find themselves humming “Gates of Delirium” during the film’s battle scene? Perhaps Jon and the lads should get a writing credit!

  21. 21Artists UK on Jan 25, 2010 at 10:03 am:

    Hmmm, so we move on from Roger Dean being plagiarised to Yes music being plagiarised. Can’t say I noticed ‘Gates of Delirium’ but then I doubt I could hum it anyway even if I knew which bit of that mammoth track it was. Be interesting to see what others think though …

  22. 22fgsfds on Jan 28, 2010 at 1:33 am:

    Dean should sue World of Warcraft, and Guild Wars, and every other video game to use floating mountains and whatever shit too. Because he invented floating mountains, pay up bitches!

  23. 23Artists UK on Jan 28, 2010 at 10:36 am:

    Hmmm, does that mean he should also be suing the ghost of magician Doug Henning who was planning to make an island really float before he died? It is an interesting idea as to where the borderline is between influence and plagiarism isn’t it? Did Roger Dean invent any kind of floating island or floating mountain or just a certain style of one? Are there any earlier examples? I must admit I’m stuck for one. Any of our bright sparks out there got one?

  24. 24Steve on Jan 29, 2010 at 10:42 pm:

    Completely agree about Dean’s production design for Avatar, but why are we also not screaming about Dean’s Influence on another rather famous Fantasy Film-maker. Have we forgotten about all the bio-replicant-mechanical creatures in Star Wars. Those At-Ats and many other “machines” are also direct rip-offs of Dean’s Work. Lucas and Camron should both pay Dean a visit and bring a big check. Also, much of the more atmospheric and “ancient choir” chanting portions of Avatar’s sound track could have been lifted from Jon Anderson’s “Change We Must”. As a contemporary of Lucas and Camron, I know where they were and what they were doing when they had their first “inspirations” endlessly staring at Dean’s Album art and reading Yes Lyrics. “Mountains come out of the sky and they stand there.”

  25. 25Artists UK on Jan 30, 2010 at 10:23 am:

    Hmmm, maybe, but since there were no loud screams of plagiarism at the time George Lucas got Star Wars on the roll it seems to be a little retrospective from the criticisms over Avatar. As before, where is the borderline between inspiration and plagiarism? Is it the fact that Cameron has not acknowledged his influences or is it more?

  26. 26phileine on Jan 30, 2010 at 3:03 pm:

    Well I saw it emediatly when I saw the floating islands, I was shocked, but then I thought, well maybe Roger Dean worked also on the movie.
    Now I find out he isn`t even mentioned in the respects or annywhere. I think this is very stupid and also very mean.
    I am shure Cameron knew Roger Dean and his work when he made the movie.
    He can`t say it was all his idea, because it wasn`t
    I think that if he mentioned Roger Dean as cooperator, Roger Dean would have earned himself an Oscar, he deserves it more then someone who steals artwork, and then doesn`t mention it.

  27. 27magritte on Jan 31, 2010 at 7:13 am:

    The previous poster, Cameron Striewski hit the nail on the head by pointing out the ironic simularity of the villians in AVATAR and James “I can take whatever I want” Cameron’s hypocrisy, corrupt morals, lack of artisitic integrity and carelessly trampling underfoot a visionary artist whom James Cameron must think is an inconsequential whimsical nobody. However, Roger Dean is old friends with truly visionary billionare astronaut, Sir Richard Branson, to whom James Cameron has rumoured to have signed up with for a spot on Branson’s spaceship. It’d be cool if Branson jokingly threatened to turn Cameron into a Floating Island in outer space over the artistic theft from VIRGIN’s first record label creator, Roger Dean. James Cameron might think he’s an untouchable big shot but Sir Richard could easily humiliate him.

    It would be interesting to hear what Syd Mead has to say on the matter. Syd Mead is an old friend of Roger Dean’s and wrote the introduction to Roger’s book DRAGON’s DREAM. He also was a designer and conceptual artist for BLADE RUNNER and the James Cameron movie, ALIENS, how very interesting, what a tangled web he weaves.

    Roger Dean has a responsibility to sue, besides being morally wrong, James Cameron has violated copyright laws and if not Dean personally then Dean’s publishers will certainly be rightfully suing for a piece of the billion dollar pie made with stolen goods.

  28. 28The Ken on Feb 5, 2010 at 12:17 pm:

    I saw the connection straight away and was dissapointed not to see anything in the credits- it also highly resembles Studios Ghibli’s (Hayao Miyazaki’s) early work (probably also influenced by Dean) .It does seem that Cameron is being a bit balshy and I hope he does do the right thing in the end. The link on Roger’s site has disappeared though, have the legal wheels started turning?

  29. 29MedullaPancreas on Feb 5, 2010 at 6:57 pm:

    Dean should sue for two billion dollars. Cameron is nothing without appropriating Dean’s work. Cameron was sued by American science fiction writer, Harlan Ellison, for appropriating his stuff for Terminator. The case was settled out of court to avoid embarrassment. Cameron’s a hack filmmaker and a hack illustrator. Hack hack hack.

  30. 30ed holland on Feb 6, 2010 at 5:30 pm:

    From the moment I first saw the posters for this movie, I just naturally assumed that Roger Dean was the production designer: the ‘Floating Mountains’ being the obvious trigger. But it doesn’t stop there. Anyone familiar with his work can play ’spot the influence’ for the length of the movie.

    In fact, why didn’t they include a swarm of ‘Osibisa’ flying elephants as well, and have done with it?

    Yours is no disgrace? I don’t think so!

  31. 31T Brown on Feb 7, 2010 at 11:22 pm:

    Absolutely. I just saw the movie and through the whole thing I was wondering that I had not heard of Dean’s input into the movie. I stayed to read the extensive credits, and there was no Dean!
    I like the movie, but Cameron needs to hand over a good chunk of royalties to the man who designed the sets and characters.
    If not, I shall burn this effigy in my front yard, hanging from suspended rock with trees on it!

  32. 32Robert on Feb 15, 2010 at 5:04 pm:

    Not just the floating islands and arches but the psychedelic colouring of the flying creatures. Sue his arse off, Roger.

  33. 33Archer on Feb 16, 2010 at 1:58 pm:

    Just about every single element of that film had been ripped off from one person or another.

    Cameron should be sued, by at least Dean if not every other people Avatar stole ideas from.

  34. 34Artists UK on Feb 16, 2010 at 5:11 pm:

    Yes, that is true. It isn’t just about the floating islands. The arches are very Roger Dean and, although we have to bear in mind that he was himself influenced by Roger Dean, some of the flowers can easily be found in Rodney Matthews work. A lot of other ideas in the film are very reminiscent of Roger Dean and other artists even where they are not obvious rip-offs.

    Another point of interest - James Cameron wrote the story for AVATAR so does he believe in its message or is it just a good money-spinner? If he believes in its message then that is a message of not abusing others. That seems strangely at odds with not acknowledging Roger Dean’s influence in his work. Maybe it was just about the money after all …

  35. 35Richard on Feb 22, 2010 at 9:49 pm:

    I just saw Avatar yesterday and immediately made the connection that the Pandora landscape was influenced by Roger Dean (before hearing or reading about this connection on the internet). When I got home, I pulled my vinyl album copies of Fragile, Close to the Edge, Yessongs, Tales from Topographoc Oceans, Yesterdays, and Relayer . . . and it is only obvious of how strong the similarities are with the design and feel of the movie’s sets and Dean’s dream-scapes. It will really be up to lawyers and judges to decide if there is a case and a basis for compensation. I see no correlation to story, plot, etc. for which plagiarism lawsuits are based. The designs are very much inspired by, but are not direct copies of those album covers. I can’t speak for the rest of Rogers Deans work (though a quick perusal of the book “Roger Dean - Views” provide a few other pieces that are very much like Pandora, especially the cover piece [The Green Castle-also on pg. 140] and Del Richardson’ album cover piece on [pg. 56]). In my opinion. such apparent influence does command some kind of recognition from the producers of the film. However, I have read other blogs where other “obvious” influences have never been acknowledged. The first that comes to mind is that of “Star Wars” from 1976 and the comic books of Jack Kirby often referred to as the “4th World” from 1971 – 1973 where characters created by Kirby (such as Darkseid – pronounced “dark side” who is evil and powerful like Darth Vader), “set” design (the death star looks remarkably like Apokolips) as well as plot (the son of the bad guys was raised the good guys) seems like it was truly an inspiration for the story, but not an outright rip off – lots of discussions on blogs but no lawsuits. So I guess my point is, yes there is influence and inspiration from Roger Dean’s art but an acknowledgement or tip of the hat would be sufficient. Certainly a public acknowledgement would boost Mr. Dean’s reputation, stature, and demand.

  36. 36FollowTheDollars on Feb 24, 2010 at 2:34 am:

    First, agree, Cameron should be sued by Roger Dean. Avatar was a complete rip-off of his artwork.

    Second, without the artwork, there is no picture. Sigourney Weaver’s character contributes next to NO science in this “science”-fiction picture. There is virtually no dialog of any significance. The soldiers could have just grunted and contributed as much.

    This was simply a very impressive visual collage. Take away Roger Dean’s obvious contribution (obviously uncredited contribution) and this picture is dead in the water.

    Here’s Hollywood crying about how much they lose to the theft of their intellectual property while they rip off others at every opportunity. Then again, maybe it’s just the Microsoft philosophy of it being cheaper to wait to be sued and pay the fine than to do things legally. The fines remain pretty much the same…if you are caught, but on a billion dollar picture it’s not a big impact. Toyota certainly thought it was a good idea to try it recently.

  37. 37Haim Sherrf on Feb 24, 2010 at 11:13 pm:

    the movie industry spend millions of dollars protecting the wrights for the creation and the bootleg copies, and yet someone like Cameron takes another artist idea and creation and uses it without acknowledgment and compensation, that is wrong and setting a bad example. As an artist and a fan of Roger deans art I fill violated. I think that the movie industry should step in and put some pressure to make it right. The movie was amazing, it is a shame that it had a bitter flavor mixed in.

  38. 38Artists UK on Mar 5, 2010 at 2:57 pm:

    A couple of days ago I had reason to telephone Roger Dean as an American publisher was trying to contact him without success (he’s a busy guy!). Of course, I asked him about James Cameron and the AVATAR film and told him about all the comments you people have been leaving here. You might have thought he would have poured out a lot of angry vitriol against both Cameron and Avatar but in fact his immedaite reaction was to express how touched and grateful he is for the support, comments and observations of so many people. I was rather touched myself that that was his reaction. It is nice when old heroes don’t let you down. Obviously that wasn’t all he said to me but we have agreed not to publish anything further here at present as it might impede other wheels that are in motion. We can only hope that somehow in the end justice will be done.

  39. 39Doh! on Mar 5, 2010 at 4:16 pm:

    Sure, let’s make the lawyers MORE rich then they already are…..
    Remember the days when suing wasn’t the answer to everything?
    How about James and Roger meet up privately, have a chat and a drink, clear the air about the whole thing and then James donates a suitable sum to Roger and/or his favourite charity. About time money went to those who deserve it, not the leeches.

  40. 40Daniel on Mar 6, 2010 at 10:43 am:

    Roger Dean was ripped off .. no doubt about… Cameron is a cheater

  41. 41Artists UK on Mar 6, 2010 at 12:41 pm:

    We’re not sure suing is or has ever been the answer to everything and most people do consider it to be a last resort. In this particular case, there appears to be a huge consensus by those familiar with Roger Dean’s work that James Cameron stole his ideas in order to make the AVATAR film. James Cameron does not appear to even acknowledge a clear influence from Roger Dean’s work. His designers disclaim all knowledge of Roger Dean. If James Cameron had been prepared to discuss AVATAR privately with Roger Dean I personally doubt that Roger Dean would have told him to get lost. The fact that the matter has not been resolved yet suggests it hasn’t happened. Judging by the comments here it would appear that most of the contributors to this discussion consider Cameron to be arrogant and aloof. Whoever Doh! is he appears to be on his own in thinking Cameron might ever consent to such a meeting over AVATAR but who knows, maybe we could all be surprised ….

  42. 42andrew stevenson on Mar 6, 2010 at 5:12 pm:

    Just been to see Avatar and i am Insensed….I cant believe what i have just seen….I have been a fan over Roger Deans for over 30 years and am at a loss at such plagarism.

    It’s that Blatant.

    I am looking forward to the sequel to see if Cameron has any other “original ideas” and if these”ORIGINAL” ideas bear any resemblance to Rodney Mattews images…I will…I will….curses are not strong enough……

  43. 43Artists UK on Mar 6, 2010 at 5:42 pm:

    Some of those flowers were already rather reminiscent of Rodney Matthews. Was he getting in some advance practice ? ….

  44. 44andrew stevenson on Mar 7, 2010 at 10:31 am:

    Well i have calmed down a bit now!!…..but you are right…..the flowers are suspicious as are the horses in people of the pines,the rock in stronghold and most notably the use of two forlegs/hindlegs on Pandoras indigenous animals AKA sack of Zodanga..i am not going to delve deeper.

  45. 45Lexistens on Mar 9, 2010 at 10:24 pm:

    I have JUST seen the movie and was unaware of all the uproar until coming straight home and Googling ‘Avatar’ and ‘Roger Dean’! It’s totally ‘Deanish’ and meanish not to at least acknowledge the influence. And what a trick they missed in not using Jon Anderson’s voice and ideally a ‘Yes’ Soundtrack. Wonderful movie though - even in 2D (I live at the end of time).

  46. 46Carmela on Mar 20, 2010 at 3:13 am:

    I went to see Avatat becuase I saw the previews and knew this movie was based on Roger Dean’s work. At least part of my family’s ticket money should go to Dr. Dean. We would not have gone otherwise. I could not believe it when I could not find “Roger Dean” in the credits. THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. Mr. Dean PLEASE SUE! I want to live in a world where you can’t steal someone’s ideas and get away with it even if you are a bigshot director!

  47. 47[email protected] on Mar 26, 2010 at 4:04 pm:

    Before I ever went to see the film or had even seen much advertising for it, I heard an interview with James Cameron by Terry Gross, of National Public Radio, on her daily show “Fresh Air.” In the interview, she asks him about the landscape, and he said he had seen a picture of a floating mountain somewhere, and thought it would be neat to include it. He goes on to discuss how he thought he should come up with some pseudo-scientific explanation of how they would occur, but that this explanation became irrelevant in the context of the movie.
    Listening, I knew immediately where he had seen the floating mountains, but was astonished when I finally saw the movie at how precisely his artists had duplicated Dean’s work. I, too, waited in vain at the end of the movie to see credit given. If Dean is not being given credit even in retrospect, he definitely has a case to sue.
    By the way, I loved the movie not only for bringing my old album covers to life (don’t forget Uriah Heep), but for bringing elements of two of my favorite fantasy series also to the big screen: Dragonriders of Pern (Anne McCaffrey) and the Darkover series (Marion Zimmer Bradley).

  48. 48Artists UK on Mar 26, 2010 at 4:33 pm:

    Hmmm, yes, well since there are not many floating mountains around I think we could quite easily work out where that “somewhere” was. Roger Dean is not saying much about all of this so we can only hope that something will happen that will calm the outrage of all his fans around the world.

  49. 49minespatch on Apr 15, 2010 at 5:20 pm:

    ttp://news.deviantart.com/article/109978/

    Plagerism is a dangerous crime. Nick simmons is another victim of cheapening creativity by stealing many other people’s ideas and scrutinizing into his little deranged world of tracing. People like Simmons and Cammeron should burn for what they have done.

    Also, I like Magritte’s comparison about how Cameron is similar to the army.

  50. 50Bill on Apr 23, 2010 at 9:49 pm:

    I agree with everyone here, and even though there are copy right laws…..imitation IS the highest form of flattery. If we`ve all thought of Mr. Dean while viewing this movie, then the simple fact remains that this artist has left his mark on us all.
    Put the MONEY aside, we all know who the real hero is here.

  51. 51Naja on Apr 27, 2010 at 8:57 pm:

    I here alot of whining and crying on Roger Deans behalf and I too belive that this great artist should glean alot of the artistic credit and monetary benefits…if he, Roger Dean so chooses! I worked under another famous artist/illustratoer that Roger wrote the forward to his book called the “Age of Innocence” and I read thought the words as well as looked other works and writing of his; to get a feel for the charater of the man, the artist. Believe you me, if Roger Dean would like to gain the financiacial fruits of his past achevements he could and would, and possibly will at the beat of his own drum…this is certainly nothing new to him and will probaby happen to him as well as other great artist’s again as well. How they choose to deal with it is really there business. it is great to hear fans angry and heard what THEY think he shoud do, I believe the answer is yes and no! Please Hear me out! I a was watching the Blue-Ray and cheering on “Oh my God good going Dean!…and looked for an artist’s credits at the end off the movie and the curiously on the web and found this dreaded blog; I started writing the same stuff you all were putting out and STOPPED! I decided to and read through the entire thread before making myself the fool…As and artist you are always asked “Who has influenced you work?”, and an artist will let that information be made public without fear of being alled a plagurist or plagurizing a style. This being the information and quick results age ehere everyone becomes an expert overnight; looking and compaing and pointing the fingure her and there is on the rampant..too fast, too late! I belive that is where Mr. Jame Cameron has taken a very wrong and dangerously wrong road! Maybe the two (ot three including YES because YES they paid their right’s to obtain the Roger Dean art and as many have pointed out, there are numerous similarities to their music as well!) should go to the “White house and hammer there differences with our President over a few a few beers since this has worked before in a well now civil matter… since most of you say Mr. Cameron has always settled out of court to avoid enbarressment…this would then make it the ultimate smear campaign you all want and be nationally know settlement and chastization for Mr. Cameron and due and rightful attention that Dean deserves. Thats what you all want?! In all seriously though; Mr. Cameron is being somewhat plageriszide or beinf “paid” himself by the movie making industry by turning once 2D movies into 3D movies only to have have the cimena ticket rise from $10.50 to that three to four dollars moer at a clip, and that is what the overall arguement comes down to when I read this thread , MONEY! Roger Dean must also feel as a fantastic and humble artist that he is, proud to see the infuence that he has made on this fim “AVATAR” and so many artists and films as well…and I believe he will get his just rewards, he most certainly always does!
    I say let this play out and then if you do not like the eventual results; create a smear campaigm on Cameron as has been done before forcing him to think back on his “smoking Days” Thank you…It has been done befor with measurable results, with enough intelligent and level headed fans!

  52. 52Naja on Apr 27, 2010 at 9:08 pm:

    Sorry about the misspellings on my last and long winded rant, but I did read through it a few times and though it to be proofed, but my view has not changed…let’s let Roger Dean the the artist you and I all admire and are passionate abou, take care of this. We kmow that this is his work made to the big screen by Mr. Cameron and as stated the history of Mr. Cameron, abeit a geinous with special effects technology has a few new roads to walk on …but I think Roger Dean can and will take care of himself and would be honered with a more level headed fan base! Not that there is not a place foe really passionate fans like your sels, I guess it is all good thinking in all through…

  53. 53nanc on May 1, 2010 at 10:56 am:

    At first I was a little thrown back by the fact that James Cameron would make a movie that is in all certain terms, a cartoon. Knowing what an avatar in this computer age meant, I was not sure what the movie was about after seeing short advertisements with military guys, alien race, and an alien world. But after seeing the movie I was impressed, not really a great movie but it was pretty visually impressive. Ironically, the story line is very similar to many other movies. But when the movie got to the scenes of the “floating mountains” OMG!, I started saying to my husband, “that’s outer planets” which is one of the terms us Yes fans call those floating pieces of land on their album covers. Being once a huge (almost a religion) Yes fan, I then noticed the extreme similarities between Roger Dean and this movie. But hold on! Cameron not only must be a Yes fan at one point of the movie he has incorporated not only Yes scenes but Jon Anderson’s first album. Olias of Sunhillow. Some of the references cannot be mistaken. The tree of light where the alien race goes to worship their creator is directly from that album. Many times I wanted to start singing Olias of Sunhillow. Why doesn’t he admit and give credit where credit is due.

  54. 54CilianZ on May 2, 2010 at 2:14 pm:

    “Because he invented floating mountains”

    Magritte, Castle in the Pyrenees, 1959:

    https://dearme.spex.de/files/2009/10/castle_in_the_pyrenees-1-500×767.jpg

  55. 55graham belfast on May 5, 2010 at 9:28 am:

    as Bono says in the fly “every artist is a cannibal ,every poet is a thief. everyone draws inspiration from external sources purely original thoughts are very rare and arent we all connected on a spiritual level of consciousness anyway ?

    Copyright and litigation dont seem to be compatible bedfellows why dont we just enjoy the art for what it is stunning in both cases
    im sure if you asked roger dean about his 70s art he will have drawn from someones ideas and used templates as well

    chill out and remember everythings gonna be alright

    graham astral traveller belfast

  56. 56Artists UK on May 5, 2010 at 9:56 am:

    Hi Graham. Thanks for astral travelling in from Belfast (although we have heard that the planes are back in operation!). Yes, Roger Dean certainly has influences but the feeling of most contributors here is that there is a distinction between being influenced by someone and outright wholesale theft of their ideas and style. Roger dean fans do not seem to have watched AVATAR thinking, “Oh, that’s nice, he’s got some Roger Dean influence in his work.” What they did think you’ll find by reading back through the posts and it seems closer to, “This is a complete ripoff of Roger Dean’s ideas and style” don’t you think? Note the contribution from CilianZ above and ask yourself whether Roger Dean maybe was influenced by Magritte. Look at Roger Dean’s actual art and I’m sure you’ll agree that he has not ripped off Magritte’s idea in total, nor has he copied the style. Besides, Roger Dean is rarely satisfied with having only one thing floating and nor was Cameron in allegedly copying him. If there is no distinction between influence and plagiarism we’d have a whole world full of supposedly original Mona Lisa’s wouldn’t we?

  57. 57Orlando S. on May 5, 2010 at 8:41 pm:

    Unfortunately, there are lots of great (and not so great) artists that borrow & copy without giving credit. How many times has Archimboldo turned in his grave, when seeing yet another face made of fruit or vegetables (those who haven`t heard of him, Google his name and discover this oft copied 16th century master)?

    Great artists have no problems in citing their sources, and when they don`t they loose fans, just as James Cameron is doing right now. We`ll all of us live off the pleasure of denouncing him for many years to come to uninformed Avatar fans. I think the film has enough merits to immortalize J. Cameron, as it is brilliant, but he`ll be bugged by this point, just because he`s unable to give credit where credit is due.

    As for Roger Dean, what a gentleman. Not only do we love his art, but now we have even more reason to love the person. Why not pop over to the Yes website & get a t-SHIRT, which can be used to start conversations w/ as many people as possible. Roger, being the artist he is, only sells fine prints & signed stuff… Who knows I might afford one sometime?

  58. 58graham belfast on May 6, 2010 at 8:16 am:

    Thanks for the reply . I do take your point I was brought up on the Yes albums in the 70s, and Roger Deans album sleeves somehow mirrored the music [also Uriah Heeps albums ] SO I do have empathy with the whole copyright argument

    They are unique I remember painting my bedroom white and lime green and plastering the posters from ” Tales from Topographic Oceans” and” Close to the Edge” all over the walls lol much to the bemusment of my parents who thought I had joined a cult and were flicking through the yellow pages for the guys in the white
    coats !

    My point was just to put some balance on the discussion you have comments about suing for millions of dollars etc I hope the exposure results in a whole new generation of people who might never have had the chance to enjoys Roger Deans Art work and maybe by default discover some Yes music [surely a good thing]

    I was commenting mainly from an esoteric view point about the art and music but maybe Cameron in hindsight should have credited his inspirational muses its kinda sad that didnt happen

    one thing you maybe should highlight here is the roger dean web site where you can still enjoy his porfolio and maybe buy a few items to redress the balance WWW rogerdean.com ———- its all about EGO lol my advise is to surrender the Ego and forget about conflict

    Life is an illusion[albeit a very powerful one] and as said previously in the end ” Everythings gonna be alright”

    PS all flights back to normal maybe Roger is on his way to Iceland as we speak with paintbrush and easle another volcanic landscape and masterpiece in the making methinks

    peace

    Graham Astral traveller Belfast

  59. 59Artists UK on May 6, 2010 at 8:53 am:

    Hi Graham

    You probably paid about £1.99p each for those Roger Dean Big O posters and in pristine/very good condition they would now almost certainly both be worth over £200 each. The white and lime green wall would almost certainly be worth less :-)

    It is a shame that litigation hangs around the creative fields of art and music like a dark thundercloud but until we have a world in which people respect each other properly and treat each other with friendliness and generosity that is the price we all pay. We can hope but we may be waiting some time for it to change …

  60. 60Firefyte on Jun 18, 2010 at 4:58 am:

    I totally agree. Anyone looking at the conceptual art used in Avatar can clearly see Roger Deans genius. Dean had visualized floating land masses, skeletal rock formations and flying dragons with vividly colored camouflage patterns decades ago. In many cases Dean would focus an entire series on creatures with fantastic camouflage. Not only did Camerron take from Roger Dean but he also took from the cover artwork of the Edgar Rice Borroughs John Carter of Mars series. These classic covers had several multi-legged creatures very similar in concept to the creatures in Avater. Perhaps Michael Whelan might also have a bone to pick with Camerron. If push comes to shove I am sure we will hear Camerron say something dismisive like “all artists build on the work of other artists” but the mind of Roger Dean is just too evident in Camerrons movie…..he should at the very least be honest and give Dean the credit he deserves. I have other issues with Camerron….he tends to enjoy portraying the Marine Corps as either unprofessional and incompetent (Aliens) or a bunch of blood thirsty rednecks (Avatar). Avatar being a work of pure fantasy… Camerron could have just as easily made the ruthless attacking human forces a corporate security group (Blackwater) hired to do the company’s dirty work….or even some specialized branch of the Army or a detachment of Space Rangers. Instead Camerron took the opportunity to make the Marine Corps the bad guy….that is why I never paid him my $11 to see Avatar at the movies.

  61. 61Firefyte on Jun 18, 2010 at 5:03 am:

    My bad…Ridley Scott made Aliens….but Camerron still should not have made the Marine Corps out as just a bunch of blood thirsty thugs.

  62. 62john on Jul 18, 2010 at 10:58 pm:

    Did no-one ever read gullivers travels?

  63. 63Artists UK on Jul 19, 2010 at 8:54 am:

    Err, yes John … what exactly is your point?

  64. 64Brian Aust on Dec 21, 2010 at 5:59 pm:

    I loved Avatar and, like those of you who mentioned previously, immediately saw tales of topographic landscapes throughout the movies. The floating islands and the arches did not in any way come out of Cameron’s imagination and the flying steeds are straight out of Roger Dean’s “Morning Dragon” painting. I imagine that the Yes albums made a good living for Dean, but Cameron owes him big. I read an interview with James Cameron wherein he was asked “did you get your landscape and creature ideas from prog-rock album cover artist Roger Dean?” His reply was insulting: “well, maybe deep in my head were some imprints from a youth spent smoking way too much pot.” That’s horse manure. The thing that bugs me most is how millions of people who don’t know Yes music or Roger Dean’s work have seen Avatar and thinking “Wow, what a cool world!” o question about it at all. I know several and they all say “who’s Roger Dean? Really, Yes album covers? No way….”

    We all love Roger, and it isn’t pleasant, but he should sue. It’s his intellectual property and James Cameron was absolutely wrong for not including Dean in the process of making Avatar. He should especially sue in light of the next 2 Avatar sequels. My sense is that all Cameron had to do was recognize him and he would have been happy, even honored to be onboard for such an otherwise breathtaking cinematic experience.

  65. 65Artists UK on Dec 21, 2010 at 6:53 pm:

    You are probably right Brian. I know that when I spoke to Roger about it I was certainly under the impression that the financial implications were not his real concern. It seemed to me that he just thought it was wrong of Cameron to use his ideas without permission.

  66. 66Paul on Dec 24, 2010 at 7:56 pm:

    Typical, Americans think they can pinch anyones ideas and concepts and dont give a dam, sue them, bet they would sue you !!.

  67. 67René Mélançon on Jan 9, 2011 at 12:34 am:

    Hello! I am from Québec , Canada , and have always been a big fan of Roger Dean……Even though Mr. Cameron is a fellow Canadien … I am not too happy about the fact that he let Stromberg tottaly rip off that artist ….especially the stone arches ….OMFG! - It’s too obvious! Even the floating sea-landscapes are a rip-off ……Piss off Stromberg! Dean should sue…in good ol’ American style …. that He should win over that Bastard!

  68. 68Paula on Mar 20, 2011 at 9:56 pm:

    I understand the views of everyone here, but it’s impossible to copyright or trademark an “idea” - only a particular piece of work. Regarding the designers claiming not to have heard of Dean; I can believe that if Cameron said “I want something like this…” and they elaborated on his idea.

    It is also entirely possible that Cameron himself was unaware that his ideas were heavily influenced by Dean. But it’s also possible that he knows the law regarding copyright, and knows he can get away with using variations of someone else’s idea.

  69. 69Artists UK on Mar 21, 2011 at 2:08 pm:

    Good comments Paula and given the fact that nothing appears to have happened to our knowledge so far over the Avatar film Cameron does appear to have got away with it. Maybe he also knows the adage that there is no such thing as bad publicity … He may have made many Roger Dean fans all over the world very angry but they all went to see his film and made money for him.

  70. 70Victoria on Apr 23, 2011 at 2:18 am:

    I watched Avatar on cable for the first time a couple of days ago. My first thoughts were, ‘how heartwarming, Dean is still doing his beautiful thing’.. Avidly, I watched through the credits, no mean feat, given their huge number! There was nothing, absolutely no recognition of Dean’s astonishingly amazing world which he brought to life in his artworks.

    Dean and his work may inspire a certain amount of ‘intertextual’ mimicry but I felt this was not the case with Cameron’s world, Pandora. The direct comparison was too great, too obvious to be easily explained away by Cameron. What was he thinking? He has plagiarised Dean’s work blatantly and should be held to account. Certainly some kind of acknowledgement and financial compensation should be awarded to Roger Dean. I am Australian and Dean’s work - introduced initially to me in the 70’s via the Yes artworks -made me a lifelong admirer of his style and imagination. Cameron may have brought a world called Pandora to the screen but Dean created that universe many years ago.

  71. 71Artists UK on Apr 23, 2011 at 9:12 am:

    Thank you Victoria. I think many Roger Dean fans would agree with your last comment that Cameron may have brought a world called Pandora to the screen but Dean created that universe many years ago. You have the same view as many others here that Cameron crosssed the boundary between influence and plagiarism in the making of this film and should be held to account for the wholesale theft of Roger Dean’s work.

  72. 72jon on Jul 1, 2011 at 5:59 pm:

    When Ridley Scott wanted an H.R.Gieger alien, he got H.R.Gieger to make him one. That shows a lot of class. Cameron, on the other hand… not so much.

  73. 73Julian Svensson on Dec 26, 2011 at 12:57 am:

    James Cameron was probably inspired by a number of Fantasy artists including both Roger Dean and Rodney Mathews. The floating islands in the sky for one as well as some of the amazing illustrations painted by Mathews for many Michael Moorcock books. Personally I think Cameron would have done better to base the film around one of Moorcocks excellent fantasy books, at least the film would have had a decent screen play.
    Lets not also forget that all these guys were probably inspired by one of the grand daddies of fantasy art - John Martin. There is currently an excellent exhibition of his work to mid January at Tate Britain Gallery. Sadly Martin is not as well known as he should be, but the good news is that when I went to the Exhibition the rooms were half empty, yet people are queing for 3 hours every day just to buy tickets to see the Leonardo de Vinci exhibition at the National Gallery. People should be queing up for John Martin as well!

  74. 74Artists UK on Jan 14, 2012 at 6:28 pm:

    Sure Julian, John Martin was an amazing artist and ‘Plains of Heaven’ one of the most dazzling pieces I’ve ever seen but to quote him as an influence, main or otherwise, for Roger Dean, Rodney Mathews etc might be stretching the limits of credulity a bit. I’ve never heard either of these artist’s mention him as an influence. I would agree that some of Rodney Mathews’ style is there in Avatar in some of the plants but nowhere near as strongly as the number of ripoffs of Roger dean’s work that Roger Dean fans here have been mentioning. Let’s not forget that Rodney Mathews does quote Roger Dean as an influence. Much as I admire John Martin I can’t help feeling you’ve hijacked the thread here to talk about something else other than whether Roger Dean should be suing Cameron.

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